J2EE vs .NET (2)

Why can't the 'Scalability' section of this document, also include the other possible 'real world' hardware/software selections when considering J2EE?

  -> WINTEL
  -> LINTEL

I would consider this section of the document incomplete for the purposes of serious comparison.

If there are glaring performance/scalability issues with J2EE on either of these platforms, Roger Sessions could have played that to the hilt...

Are there any benchmarks or 'educated' guessworks comparing J2EE and MS/.NET that use the same hardware (and maybe even using NT/2000)?
 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: m m on June 15, 2001 in response to this message. 
.Net applications exist actually (june 2001) , yes there are still in beta version but they exit.
You will see on September the power of .Net and the java killer : C#

 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: K George on June 16, 2001 in response to this message. 
I don't agree that the M$ and $UN are equal evils at least from a developers perspective.To me key issue is that in the final analysis MS makes its $ from software Sun makes it moolah from hardware. Eventually when you apply Darwinian logic to it MS can only grow(when you consider its market cap) by taking marketshare from other people in the software market place by pushing as many commoditized solutions into the market(including niche but highly profitable markets like telecoms, embedded systems, games etc). As long as they own the platform there is nothing people can do about it. I think every one on this forum knows the history(and the bodies :-)). The ISVs already know and understand this(I work for one), hence their enthusiasm for J2EE. Personally speaking as a individual developer I know I'm at the bottom of the food chain but eventually MS is going come for me and charge me gatekeeper fees. I know this is paranoid but I'm great fan of Andy Grove's dictum that "Only the paranoid survive." So I'd rather play with my enemy's enemy right now.

Other than that I agree with most of the forum that J2EE is really great architecure with poor GUI development(esp. integration) tools.

MS really kicks ass when it comes to providing an out of the box integrated development environment.
 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Claude Bernard Diesse on June 21, 2001 in response to this message. 
I am very surprised to see that so skilled guys as you continue to confuse about who is who in this computer and IT business. Is M$ more evil than $un or Oracle$ or Ibm$ ? That is a lost-time debate... But I want to share my today conviction:
1- All are Devils until they realize you have understood their real intend !!! (to sell shit at the highest price). And non one is better in that game.
2- M$ have been ejected from the JAVA wagon by Sun/IBM/Oracle gang using the doubtful strategy, and the fact that M$ was at that time looked as an Evil for many middleware developers. But If you today developers are honest, you will agree that the Java solution, which started War against M$, is no more than a COM+ solution with a better packaging and a OO adapted langage for integration and worked to resolve the weakness of VB/C++ link to COM+. M$ tried to introduce some rules in java, to take his Windows/COM/MTS investment into account, but the java gang refused pushing him into licence violation and creating all necessary lawsuit. They won to put him out but they also won another real concurrent platform .NET as microsoft intend to reply by the same way.

3- I have not already look at the .NET solution, because of lake of time, but I am barely sure the M$ approach will be to do the same thing the java gang have done in the past: Look at the weakness of the J2EE solution and trying to leverage his current investment in COM+/MTS.

4- Some one ask why M$ don't simply licence $un Java ? He have to remember that the goal is to reuse his past investment(COM+/MTS/DNA) ... And those who want to believe that M$ is creating a new product have to quit right now. The new challenge is how to package the same old stuff in a new shining manner. I know they use developers to advocate that their solutions are new.

5- Java by itsel is not technically new ... But the rules, policies and environment are newly specified to give a more open shared opportunities and solutions. With C#, Microsoft will try to copy all good stuff of Java and give the opportunity to his loyal developers to not regret Java environment... And I will not be surprise that the 2 languages will share the same concepts each copying the best of the other.

6- For my conclusion, I think the issue is held by the developers ... If Java Developers continue to be more vigilant as in the past, the J2EE platform will enhance and acquire more tools and be more easy to use. J2EE will continue to keep the distance as long as developers continue to share knowledge and there are more shareware source for java solutions. In the J2EE environement, it is difficult to cheat ... You can look at the change of course at Oracle: They have losted tme trying to sell anything but Application Server solution in Java environment. Today the have to admit they were wrong trying to call a cat a dog. They have good tools, but they too want to sell old investment products. IBM too is not so famous and they are not realy J2EE compliant ... By doing so, they give opportunity to Bea to take the lead. You can realize tha also Sun have some difficulties to be the leader in the aera. I think they also have internal fight with those who want to sell old stuffs.

7- M$ can win if they continue to pretend in that sense. Developers in M$ area are somewhat confused by what is really going on, and they usually compete with M$ as main developer. Dear Developers, do'nt worry with M$ .NET solution, because it will be a one supplier solution, for lowest integrator. I think Java gang will not give him the chance to come back and your J2EE succefull solutions are the only way to measure that come back.

cheers.

The only issue for .NET solution is

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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Alex B on June 26, 2001 in response to this message. 
The problem with IDEs is that those tools cater to the non-technical developers. I view them as crutches/training wheels. If you don't know how to ride a bike, training wheels come in very handy. They prevent you from falling down. But, if you already know how to ride, they are a hindrance.

Same is with those VB-like IDEs -- if you know how to design your classes properly, the IDE will just be in your way (as it doesn't really support proper design practices). But if you don't know much about the OO design, the IDE may help by assuring some crude level of coherence in your code.

The fact remains that about 70% of the software development effort goes into thinking. The remaining 30% is spent on implementing/deploying. IDEs cannot help you think better. They may assist you in some areas of implementation/deployment, but if you really know what you're doing, an IDE is simply an annoyance. There are many people, however, who are choosing to switch from being office workers (i.e. sales reps, accounting staff, etc.) to building software. They lack proper formal training in software development, but some vendors give them the encouragement by offering them an IDE. VB championed that, and millions were convinced that they could easily switch to developing apps. Unfortunately, people who really know how to build apps are often called in to clean up the mess after these guys have had their go with IDEs.

In the long run, I don't think it's worth the trouble.

Alex 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Bernhard Messerer on June 27, 2001 in response to this message. 
This may be true to a certain degree, however... I think I _can_ design properly, and I can work with and editor and the JDK. I also agree with the useless VB like IDEs.
I however, disagree completely that IDEs just hinder you. I'm sorry, but I like the syntax highlighting, I like a project structure pane, i like to see the structure of my classes, I don't want to edit DDs by hand, and neither do I want to code remote interfaces by hand. I enjoy UML diagrams, I like the graphical debugger, I like building UIs with some mouseclicks and so on.
So I think if you would take the time, and get used to the IDE it can save you a lot of time and will not be in your way. It will help you a lot.

Messi 
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 IDE's  
Posted By: Girish Eashwar on June 29, 2001 in response to this message. 
Alex,

I would like to highlight a few issues regarding IDE's. there is no doubt that devlopment is about thinking. An IDE job is however to free time resources for the developer to concentrate more on development logic, than using them to worry about Standards compliance and other such issues. An IDE helps the developer by generating infrastructure code, implementation code and allowing him to focus more time on the actual business logic code.
If you looka the IDe's market, new IDe's that are very focussed like say on J2EE are coming yp so fast. They offer a standards compliant development environmnet which helps increse productivity. These no way make the job of the Developer less important, in fact they increase his importance by providing him better ways of doing it.
Hope i made my point. 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: jean-luc thiry on June 29, 2001 in response to this message. 
Working on designing a new IT architecture I am considering using an application server as a major component.
After considering the technical aspects of J2EE and .NET I considered the application server market. On over 50 Application Servers, only 1 used the Microsoft Technology and over 10 the J2EE technology. Moreover at least 40 out of 50 used Java Like technology.
Another interesting aspect on Java Like technology is that it has triggered OSS projects that are becoming more and more interesting. The features proposed are almost equevalent to those proposed by propriatary solutions such as websphere or weblogic. Even if they are not quite as effecient today, there are good reasons to believe that they will become technically as good !
Without any expert skills on these technology I must admet that it will be difficult for me to defend the Microsoft Position.
Looking closer at J2EE I am now looking for information on the development tools that are available on the market. I found benchmarks on JBuilder, JDevelopper, Visual Age, Kawa, Forte for Java, CodeWarrior for Java, PowerJ and Visual Café. If you have any information on other products I would be quite interesting on having details on their features.
Sorry for the english mistakes

JeanLuc 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: jean-luc thiry on June 29, 2001 in response to this message. 
What are the development tools you are using and what are the problems you have with them ?

Have you got any to recommend ?

regards

JeanLuc 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Alex B on June 29, 2001 in response to this message. 
>I however, disagree completely that IDEs just hinder you. >I'm sorry, but I like the syntax highlighting

You can have the syntax highlighting in a simple editor. You can download plugins for the editor which will cover the syntax for the variety of languages.

>i like to see the structure of my classes

The best way to do that is to build UML diagrams. You don't need IDE in order to do that.

>I like the graphical debugger

Here I must agree with you... Although, I found out that if I do my OO design properly, there's basically nothing to debug.

>I like building UIs with some mouseclicks

Ugh... I was never able to find a decent EDI that would do the legwork for me when it comes to deciding on the Layout Managers. If I have to do the layout coding by hand, then IDE is just a charade. Many IDEs would simply generate the code by imposing the absolute coordinates on the components, and that's not what we want to do in Java, is it?

>So I think if you would take the time, and get used to the >IDE it can save you a lot of time and will not be in your >way. It will help you a lot.

Believe me, I've tried. I've even completed IBM's courses on Visual Age for Java. I wasn't impressed. I mean, even such a powerful tool as VAJ would interpret my layout of the components by setting the layout to null and then using the absolute pixels. That's ridiculous! I would expect that such an expensive tool would take my layout and would apply some rules to decide which layout managers to deploy. But, no such luck.

And also, I've noticed that it tends to generate a lot of crappy, redundant code. So, looks like I'll have to wait for a more advanced tool.

Alex 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Bernhard Messerer on June 30, 2001 in response to this message. 
Syntax Highlighting: Agreed
Structure: Well, and I guess you build the UML diagrams by hand? Don't get me wrong, I like UML and some IDEs offer exactly this... switching from UML to code seamlessly (Together, may not mention the other, NDA). And with "structure" I meant I don not need to search for a file or method, but it is shown in the structure pane and I can simply click on it... some overview is always good I think.
Debugger: Sorry, disagreed... although I believe in proper OO design I'm no Uerberhacker, so there is always something to debug (and may it be just Java's or the appserver's fault).
UI: Again, don't get me wrong here, but with JBuilder I can quickly design a UI prototype and "fine tune" it then. BTW: I know it is not the "correct" way, but I use null (or Borland's XYLayout) often for dialogs... as it is so much faster designing the UI then, especially for simple "Input dialogs"... and I can live with that if I translate the app I'll have to correct some button sizes. I however know that I would never design the main UI with a GUI editor... it is simply not good enough.
VAJava: Okay, agreed... although I'll probably start a flame war now I wasn't impressed by VAJava either. It was more in my way than it helped me, so I believe you tried and abandoned it absolutely. I think VAJ is far too "sophisticated"... the developer no more has control over the files and the code, and I do not see an advantage in the "pure OO" and "repository" approach.
You should probably take a look at JBuilder Enterprise, I like this one very much. But it is even more expensive ;-)

regards and hope you have luck with JBuilder

Messi 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: jean-luc thiry on July 2, 2001 in response to this message. 
JBuilder is considered as one of the best :
try
www.borland.fr/presse/2001/cmq_JavaOne.asp 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: guillem valles on July 6, 2001 in response to this message. 
Now that Sun has released a COM bridge to access J2EE,
(http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/earlyAccess/j2eecas/doc/index.html)
Windows developers could write VB,C++, etc code that works with J2EE. This could be the key for J2EE succeeded in front of .NET. 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Milos Dunjic on July 9, 2001 in response to this message. 
Hi
it is not just about speed of development. It is about maintainability before everything. You never stay with small application. It grows, grows, grows, and then? What then? It is a mess.

For that reason we have chosen J2EE. It is not about Internet time anymore - forget about it. Internet development shall be considered as complex distributed OO project.

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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Dino Chiesa on July 20, 2001 in response to this message. 
The URL for the Middleware Company's analysis is at http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=J2EE-vs-DOTNET

The conclusion is the expected one, considering that Sun paid for the paper and The Middleware Company wrote it: they say that J2EE is better for building web services. But there is now a rebuttal from Microsoft, which says that the original paper is pretty inaccurate when it comes to .NET.

 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Daniel Cardin on July 27, 2001 in response to this message. 
Regarding the Layout vs IDE discussion, I personnally like the JBuilder approach a whole lot...

Design what you want in XY coordinates then convert to GridBagLayout. I find it extremely elegant.

Add items, align things as they should look, apply GridBag, make a few minor adjustments and effortlessly have a form which is resolution independant.

my .02 :) 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Alberto Gomez-Corona on July 31, 2001 in response to this message. 
I′m biased towards Microsoft
Let me tell you about the irrational part which biases my trough, because if we have to be honests, we have also to explain ourselves deeply at the full level.

There are good things and bad things in this fight.

The right part is the right fears of middleware developpers and companies about the Microsoft dominance. this is good for the market as long as competition is.

The not so right part is to hate microsoft because MS does make a real effort into simplifying things, making today system administrators and programers tasks a matter of secretaries and application programmers in the future.

Such a thing is good for ordinary people life and for the society as a whole, but, at the same time, plays against some people and companies thay does the opposite game: "keep it complicate to maintain power and money".
And the last strategy is a dangerous option in the long term.

for that reason, I like java and I don′t like J2EE
I rather prefef HTML over GUI(people too, you developers!) and I like XML over relational overbudget-overhead.(and so on)

Do SUN, ORACLE etc plays the "complicate and win" strategy? My answer is: maybe, at least this is what I smell in the atmosphere"

What I reconmmend for J2EE companies is a good usability laboratory.

Alberto 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Holger Engels on August 11, 2001 in response to this message. 
SPFC was not more than a concept. They just dropped it. Have a look at wingS (www.wings.to.com). It uses Swing Models, Swing/AWT Events and Listeners, a powerful Template-Mechanism and has an API that is very similar to that of Swing. It's already in a stable state, the concept has proven in a number of commercial projects. The License is LGPL.

Holger Engels 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Eric Jiang on August 14, 2001 in response to this message. 
Good point there. But remember the core of .net is CLI and SOAP/webservice, both of which have been submitted to the standard body. So it is possible .net can be platform independent just like java. CLI is comparable to JVM in terms of platform dependency. I think MS is moving in the right direction. In my opinion, .net and j2ee based technologies are very similar. But .net has been designed with more internet-centric (xml, soap etc.) than j2ee, although j2ee has all basic ingredients. my 2 cents. 
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 J2EE vs .NET vs simplicity  
Posted By: Chris Harrington on August 25, 2001 in response to this message. 
Perhaps we need a co-operating system. Ab Initio. 
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 J2EE vs .NET - The cost issue  
Posted By: Chris Harrington on August 25, 2001 in response to this message. 
>Well, want to know what I really want? I really want a >nice wizard for creating the new user web site sign up. >How many projects will I have to work on before someone >creates template code? Maybe I've been using the wrong >tools? What else I want is more generic web/server side >components. (I've got a list so maybe I ought to quit and >work on them.:-)

This whole posting was very rewarding to read. But the finish really cuts to the real issue for me. I don't care if you are developing with JSP, ASP, or PHP (perhaps 99.9% of all web apps), you are probably rewriting the same "application" again and again - not even counting the thousands of others who have written this same "application". I know that I am - and I have sworn not to write another web application without first writing a meta-application which will generate the code for the real application(Tim Jowers if you are indeed pursuing this, please contact me: chrisNO@SPAMactiveinterface.com). Imagine XML-based templates and configurators which would allow you to express the logic of three-tiered applications. The build-time program could generate to whatever ASP, JSP, or PHP design pattern which you have specified. Now I don't care about the choice of deployment platform - I'll leave that to the operators/administrators.

I have heard of some work in this area in some Open Source projects. Perhaps people with more direct experience could fill us in on the status.

Why are not any technology vendors filling this seeminly lucrative void?
 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Chris Harrington on August 26, 2001 in response to this message. 
>Believe me, I've tried. I've even completed IBM's courses >on Visual Age for Java. I wasn't impressed. I mean, even >such a powerful tool as VAJ would interpret my layout of >the components by setting the layout to null and then >using the absolute pixels. That's ridiculous! I would >expect that such an expensive tool would take my layout >and would apply some rules to decide which layout managers >to deploy. But, no such luck.

Have you tried Visaj from IST? It's a pure Java GUI builder that doesn't enforce its own layout model. Take a look before giving up on GUI IDEs. (I've only built a small Java GUI with the product, but have built several large-scale Motif GUIs with their X-Designer product on which Visaj is based) 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Daniel Jallais on August 29, 2001 in response to this message. 
You're always talking about development, but don't forget that an application needs to be deployed, managed and maintained !
General statistics are saying you'll spend 20% of your time on development and 80% on maintenance. So, you need an environment with which you'll be able to work on you application for many time and when you'll find that something goes wrong in your deployed application you'll have to check what, where and what to correct. The 1st thing you'll see about "going wrong" is slower response times, after...

So, my opinion on .NET vs J2EE is exactly the same than about Windows vs Unix : How can you administrate your environment ? In other words, how can you know when something is going wrong, how can you know where the things are going wrong and what can you do when something is going wrong ?

With Microsoft environment : you don't have any information and you can't do anything. This is true with Windows as well as the different technologies envolved : MTS... And please don't answser that the systems are managing themselves automatically...
The difference with J2EE (thanks to Sun) is they defined the inner and outer APIs of the containers but not HOW to implement these APIs and to administrate these containers. So the different editors can compete not only on performance but (mainly ?) on the management aspects. And I think it's better to have a slower (in theory) but completely manageable application server than the opposite ! And if you have problems with your editor, you can use the products of an other one. The same with the development environments : Java is still Java and your ".java" files can be passed from one environment to an other one. The most important point is to NEVER code something specific for an application server in your programs, you'll loose all the benefits of Java !

With Microsoft, everything is coming from one editor. So even if you don't like, you'll continue with him !

You can see Java and J2EE as a processor : You can choose the environment as you can choose your compiler : you'll always generated code for the physical or virtual machine. And how many of todays developers are knowing something about the instruction set of the Pentium 4 ? Not a lot even if you're programming every days ! With Java, it's the same : you'll learn the language, the APIs, your development environment. That's all, never think on the deployment when you're developing, so forget to code your application server specificities in your programs.

The conclude : Java is an open world, you can choose what you want on top of this technology. The hardware layer is now the JVM / J2EE specifications.

Daniel Jallais

remark : excuse me if I made some mistakes, english is not my main language. 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Daniel Jallais on August 29, 2001 in response to this message. 
You're always talking about development, but don't forget that an application needs to be deployed, managed and maintained !
General statistics are saying you'll spend 20% of your time on development and 80% on maintenance. So, you need an environment with which you'll be able to work on you application for many time and when you'll find that something goes wrong in your deployed application you'll have to check what, where and what to correct. The 1st thing you'll see about "going wrong" is slower response times, after...

So, my opinion on .NET vs J2EE is exactly the same than about Windows vs Unix : How can you administrate your environment ? In other words, how can you know when something is going wrong, how can you know where the things are going wrong and what can you do when something is going wrong ?

With Microsoft environment : you don't have any information and you can't do anything. This is true with Windows as well as the different technologies envolved : MTS... And please don't answser that the systems are managing themselves automatically...
The difference with J2EE (thanks to Sun) is they defined the inner and outer APIs of the containers but not HOW to implement these APIs and to administrate these containers. So the different editors can compete not only on performance but (mainly ?) on the management aspects. And I think it's better to have a slower (in theory) but completely manageable application server than the opposite ! And if you have problems with your editor, you can use the products of an other one. The same with the development environments : Java is still Java and your ".java" files can be passed from one environment to an other one. The most important point is to NEVER code something specific for an application server in your programs, you'll loose all the benefits of Java !

With Microsoft, everything is coming from one editor. So even if you don't like, you'll continue with him !

You can see Java and J2EE as a processor : You can choose the environment as you can choose your compiler : you'll always generated code for the physical or virtual machine. And how many of todays developers are knowing something about the instruction set of the Pentium 4 ? Not a lot even if you're programming every days ! With Java, it's the same : you'll learn the language, the APIs, your development environment. That's all, never think on the deployment when you're developing, so forget to code your application server specificities in your programs.

The conclude : Java is an open world, you can choose what you want on top of this technology. The hardware layer is now the JVM / J2EE specifications.

Daniel Jallais

remark : excuse me if I made some mistakes, english is not my main language. 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Bill Winspur on August 30, 2001 in response to this message. 
.> The architecture is good, the tools suck.

We must have different evaluation criteria: My opinion is: 'The architecture is good and there are lots of tools, some of which are excellent.

I particularly like, JBuilder, Ant, and TogetherJ (UML, round-trip modelling for Java). I haven't tried it yet, but Embarcadero's Describe UML modeller looks great too. Also, XMLSpy is a neat xml editor that knows how to Work with a DTD. Perhaps you're looking for a universal IDE - i'm not. I like best of breed java tools that synchronise on the source code, leaving me the freedom to pick and choose the deployment options. That's why I like ant (an xml coded make script interpreter). 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Ram Mukunda on August 31, 2001 in response to this message. 
I have been playing with the VS.NET Beta 2 version for a
few weeks. I must say I am very impressed. When it releases later this year, .NET will be the best platform for developing "Web services", period. The level of XML and SOAP integration that Microsoft has achieved in the .NET framework is remarkable. You don't need to know any SOAP or XML to write a web service; that way you can concentrate on your application needs and not worry about the transport. I do not think J2EE will acheive this level of integration- may be some J2EE development environments will in the future.

So, granted, .NET Tools are great for building Web services.
Having said this, web services are still very much an unknown; it remains to be seen how widely they will be used. For building back-end applications for Web servers, it remains to be seen how well .NET will compare with J2EE.

Anyone wanting to choose .NET vs. J2EE today will need to consider that .NET is still somewhat unproven today; although that may change in 6 months. Do not underestimate the costs associated with going with J2EE too- the training of developers and so on. SO from this point of view, companies more familiar with Microsoft will probably want to transition to .NET rather than learn a whole new development environment. 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Rolf Tollerud on September 3, 2001 in response to this message. 
Hi Abhinav,

Why not developing in both environments? In my opinion it actually takes less time to make two implementations than to do it only once in java.

1) First decide your java architecture. For me I use Tomcat/Poolman/Velocity but you could also use Orion, jBoss or anything execept the "big" application servers.

2) Split your project in small milestones. Develop each milstone in C# first with all superior tools, debugger etc. After there is a breeze to port to java.

It sound crazy but try it! (As long as dotNet is not available in other plattform than windows..)

Regards
Rolf Tollerud 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: aaaaa aaaaaaaaaa on September 6, 2001 in response to this message. 
J2EE vs .NET 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Daniel Reed on September 6, 2001 in response to this message. 
I read through 90% of the comments here... some good information, so religous rants... but that is to be expected when we have a MS vs. anybody else dicussion.

I have been thinking about J2EE vs. .NET thing for a while, and have some general thoughts... would love some feedback.

<li>I am just getting started with J2EE, and agree that it is not for simple projects... way overkill.
<li>J2EE seems to have one advantage, if you design a project/application with it, it can "force" you to use at least some "good" design patterns, simply by its nature. Never had anyone talk patterns of any sort with MS.
<li>MS has by far, the best IDEs out there.... they just throw so much effort at them.
<Br><br>
One last thought... IMHO, i sometimes thing that the only reason a MS vs. everyone else debate exists is for one reason, pride. I know that using a MS product, that I can click a few buttons and have a huge chunk of code created for me, makes me feel a little useless.... i mean, anyone can click the mouse a few times (obviously it is not quite that simple). But using something that requires configuration and tweaking and testing and more configuration and investigation, when you get that built and running, I know I have a sense of pride that I was able to figure it all out and get it running... and that anyone off the street couldn't do it. I just remember that when i was in college using SQL 6.5, and finally getting it to work and configured, and then SQL 7 came out with all these wizards.... i felt betrayed. Strange... but just a random thought. 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Roger Borg on September 6, 2001 in response to this message. 
re: your final thought... I think you miss the major point.

It is not an issue of ease of use or point-and-click vs. hand editting XML descriptor files, etc., it boils down to a proprietary vs. an open standards debate.

Microsoft wants to hold most, if not all the "keys to the kingdom" -- without sharing them (or sharing sparingly).

Microsoft makes damn good products and developement tools! I have spent much of my professional career in their sandbox.

But I am now drawn to Java/J2EE. I find the J2EE architecture brilliant and the standards process (ie, product evolution) refreshingly open.
 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: doctor jinn on September 7, 2001 in response to this message. 
Open standards are OK gurus, but are we really in need of them ? i mean to ask.. if its that there are so many heterogenous and OPEN enviroments out there, then why and how is it that MS products are still in domination? If open standards are the way for the future... why dont people switch to them ? why do we only see people who are doing things-from-the-scratch going for Open standards based technologies ?

Please correct me if i am wrong.

thanks

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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: doctor jinn on September 7, 2001 in response to this message. 
Any thoughts ? Roger ? 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Roger Borg on September 7, 2001 in response to this message. 
Microsoft's dominance didn't happen overnight. They dilligently and methodically pursued their course during the nascient PC years when other companies were to lethargic or distracted -- much to their credit.

Why don't we see more people going for open standards -- as you suggest?

Linux has and continues to grow in popularity. eBay recently chose IBM's WebSphere to power its next generation offering. According to NetCraft (www.netcraft.com/survey) Appache enjoys a 2 to 1 margin of usage over Microsoft as far as webserver deployments. Based on the strong participation at this site and others I visit, there seems to be very strong interest and use of open-standards based products.

Cheers! 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: j2ee loyal on September 7, 2001 in response to this message. 
hey roger!!

i saw you are very optimistic about open-standards based technologies. i have been working with J2EE for a while now only to find that its a JAVA-ONLY solution. microsoft now claims that dotnet is not a single language solution unlike java and that would probably fetch them good market share, once again in the application framework segment. remarks ? comments?

what do you think about the much talked about c# language, i understand its mostly like java. so, maybe the open-source community guys need to work a little bit more in the areas where microsoft is strong. for instance, microsoft has some very good development tools like visual studio, which is full of great features and at the same time its FAST. and microsoft has always talked about language-independence, starting all the way with COM, and now with .NET
 
donno how many applications have really found the language-indep. feature useful. most of the COM/COM+ dev. is done with visual studio though.

hope i did not drift away from what i actually wanted to ask and convey.

Regards

 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Roger Borg on September 7, 2001 in response to this message. 
>>i have been working with J2EE for a while now
>>only to find that its a JAVA-ONLY solution

IMHO ... I do not have a problem with Java-only. But that is me. ;)

And the fact that C# is so Java-like ... well, copying is the best form of flattery.

>>microsoft now claims that dotnet is not a single language
>>solution unlike java and that would probably fetch them
>>good market share, once again in the application
>>framework segment

Maybe this is true, but developers, architects and planners will consider the "entire picture".

But [I'm moving to stand on my box] this sort of debate boils down to choosing those things that fit within the constraints and budget of a project and the comfort zones of its developers. Most often there is no right or wrong just a best fit. For some that best fit is open source or some mixture, for others it is Microsoft. [I'm off my box.]

I'm not a hardcore zealot of either... just a recent user of Java/J2EE. And I'm enjoying it! I haven't been this happy since I stopped diddling with COM! ;}

Cheers

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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Roger Irwin on September 17, 2001 in response to this message. 
I think there is no difference between .NET CLI and the JVM as regards supporting additional languages.

There are very few add on languages for .NET (Perl Python and Cobol), wheras JVM versions of just about every language (except VB and Foxpro) are under the JVM.

The real difference lies in the GUI builder tools perhaps?

I have never properly understood what is and what is not .NET, multiple language support must surely relate to Visual Studio .NET, not an API? 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Dave Morris on September 18, 2001 in response to this message. 
>J2EE seems to have one advantage, if you design a >project/application with it, it can "force" you to use at >least some "good" design patterns, simply by its nature. >Never had anyone talk patterns of any sort with MS.

Isn't this to do with Java rather than J2EE.
Or, more precisely, Java programmers, the Java community and what I would call 'the Java style of programming'.
Small classes which do one thing well, designed to be re-used from the start.

Java started after design patterns became popular, and most Java programmers tend to design with OO re-use in mind.
C++ inherited a lot from C, and started before design patterns were popular.

I've see old style C programmers mangle Java, and Java programmers develop good OO designs in C++.

I would find it dificult to write a non-OO design in J2EE, but I like J2EE _because_ I like Java style OO design. It would be dificult to write in without OO design patterns because I naturally think in Java OO style.

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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Ron Hodges on September 20, 2001 in response to this message. 
In J2EE Design Patterns apply to architecture (application partitioning in particular) more than to coding specific objects. There are a number of ways to skin a cat and the patterns illustrate this in detail. 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: game boy0 on September 21, 2001 in response to this message. 
Java is language-specific and platform-independent, and dot-NET is language-independent and platform-specific."

http://www.sdmagazine.com/documents/s=733/sdm0103a/0103a.htm 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: game boy0 on September 21, 2001 in response to this message. 
>Java is language-specific and platform-independent, and dot-NET is language-independent and platform-specific.

So if a company wanna develop something and have quite long
long sight and visions, they wanna maintain JUST 1 version
for their applications/systems and can deploy in ALMOST ALL
of this world, any platform -- MAC, linux, unix, novell, windows, VMS, BSD .... just to maintain and upgrade ONE version, with a little bit speed sacrificying ....

then bet on JAVA.

How do you think ?? 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: F00lio X on September 25, 2001 in response to this message. 
I have watched this battle for a long time. I have also re-read all these posts about J2EE vs Microsoft.

Here is my take:

To the people who think that a J2EE server must come from BEA or IBM and cost 16k per processor. Orion webserver http://www.orionserver.com is a phenominal J2EE server. The cost is 1,500 per box (no matter how many processors) it is easy to configure and also has a free developers license. I loaded it up on my linux machine and had it serving pages in less than 30 minutes.

I refuse to be locked into the Microsoft line. Several reason:
1) I have seen them change things in their programming APIs for no aparent reason. No announcement of the change. No documentation on it.

2) Security. Period. Each month this year another crippling vulnerability has been exploited in IIS and the windows line of server software. Yeah all software has bugs, but it seems like M$ has more than their share of exploits. In the medical insurance industry our clients privacy and medical information are protected by federal law. A break in to our systems and the release of patient information could topple our company.

3) Platform dependence. Yeah it is a rare day indeed that a company changes platforms. But it can happen. I wouldn't want to throw away years of development costs because our company switched from win2k to solaris, linus or freeBSD.
Arguments are made that in a clustered environment Win2k is reliable. However I have a linux server I paid 700 for the pieces. It has a mail server, J2ee server, 2 databases, a web server, an FTP server and more. On this architecture I can expect uptimes of well over 9 months to a year and the total cost for all the above pieces of software, fully licensed, and the hardware is 2200$. I can't even get MS exchange (for mail) and win2k on a server for that. Much less expect uptimes of longer that 30 days. (before I get incinerated by flames, my authority for this is www.netcraft.org find the uptime for www.microsoft.com (they should be best able to maintain their own servers) and for www.ford.com (another large shop on the MS framework)

4) In the early 80's when IBM came out with the PC they also were the main supplier of the operating system DOS. A copy sold for 400$. The whole reason MS even came about is they pieced together a version of DOS and sold it for 40$. IBM was on top of the software market and was extremely arrogant. The eventually fell and by their own admission, almost lost the company in the middle to late 80's.

Microsoft is exibiting the same sort of behavior. The very act of them making our department spend 10's of thousands of unbudgeted money just to verify that we are being honest with our licensing of their product (guilty before proven innocent) is absurd. Bundling of products. Forbidding the removal of the IE icon from the desktop by OEM's. Attempting to make the licensing of XP like an ASP. They are exibiting signs of an arrogant company and IT departments won't stand for it. Similar to the early 80's there is another player in the OS market, linux and as soon as someone perfects WINE or provides a way to run ALL windows programs on a linux machine...The MS goose is cooked.

5) Java was one of the first attempts to bring together architecture. Dissimilar operating systems could be developed for, allowing for niche markets to get software targeted for them regardless of the operating system. I see none of this in the MS plan.

6) Java is one language and it is centrally controlled, although many can develop tools and parts to it.
In the MS plan (.net) many languages are supported on one platform using a commmon binary. I don't know how the rest of the IT shops are run but I have enough of a time getting people in my shop to write code legible for the other members to follow. There are some parts of the code that are a pain in the MULE to maintain even though we have several senior people familiar with this task. This will OBVIOUSLY compound with the introduction of several languages. VB looks nothing line c# and c# looks nothing like ASP. I have a tough enough time finding qualified people in our area of expertise and getting them teched and their skills examined as it is. If I had to maintain a diverse staff and people (or materials) to quantify their skills before hire, just to maintain code, I would incurr dramatic additional costs.

In closing,

The very needs of our business, security, reliability, scalability and maintainability are not as equally represented in the MS (.NET) plan. It rather seems like the same old tale of upgrading to fix the OLD BUGS and to get NEW BUGS. I cast my lot with J2EE.

dwilson 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Boris Scharinger on September 26, 2001 in response to this message. 
How big is your organization?

From my point of view, in a medium to big-size company,
the existing application landscape has to be kept in mind.

And whether there are ressources and "knowledge" networks for Microsoft technology or J2EE.

Don't try a mixture (like one technology for medium project / one technology for large project), it is hard to have capable staff for development and maintenance of more than one technology.

What other pieces of standard technology are there and are they linked to either J2EE or .NET (e.g. databases?)

Regards, Boris 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Manny Celi on October 2, 2001 in response to this message. 
1) Which architecture is more robust for applications which require extensive search mechanisms and documents sharing and transfer and collaboration ?
J2EE and UNIX

2) Which options will reduce time to market and cost to market or develop and cost to maintain applications ?
The cost of a UNIX environment (unless you go the Linux route) will be higher, but in the long-run, which should be your concern if this is a critical application for your enterprise, will be less in maintenance as well as scalability is easier.
We have been developing applications in Java for the last year, and we have seen a reduction in the development time, versus that of similar applications written in C, C++, or Visual Basic.
Also, the advantage of developing in a Windows workstation, testing there to later move it into a UNIX environment without the need of recompiling has proven to be a incredible benefit.
If you follow sound Project Management techiques, following the logical Software Phases (requirement gathering, analysis/design, etc.), you should be OK in any language that you choose, but development time can be cut by 15 to 20% using Java. We have experienced it ourselves.

3) Which architecture will useful for future flexibility of moving towards an ASP ?
Java, and the J2EE provide you with multiplatform capabilities that Windows cannot.

4) Does size of IT shop and in house vs. out house development make a difference of what you choose ?
Yes, if you are dealing with a small shop, and they already have a Windows environment, I would use that environment while still planning on a J2EE architecture as when the shop's needs/demands for more power become an issue, you can always move the code to a more robust UNIX environment.

The beauty of J2EE is that you can actually have people outside of your organization work on pieces that can later be deployed, and if they need to, they can access beans/JSPs, etc., running on your app. server from a remote location. You don't need to deploy parts of the system to them so that they can test.

We have worked with the Windows environment for many years, and when the demands became too much for Windows, we moved to a Sun-Solaris environment, and it has proven to be a very good decision.

The problem you face with .NET and other MicroSoft architectures is that you are stuck with Windows as they don't intend to support other platforms, and if the time comes when you need to make the move, you will most probably be faced with extensive re-writes.

I have nothing against Windows/MicroSoft, I believe there is a place for their systems, it all depends on the budget, the environment, and the technical needs. For a small shop, Windows may be the ideal solution, for them UNIX would be an overhead.

Good Luck,

Manny 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Eric Fontaine on October 8, 2001 in response to this message. 
Here's a question I have not seen addressed here yet...

Many shops are dealing with an established M$ shop for web-side development, which was put in place to get on the web quickly. Now that the time and money are available to handle architectural projects like middle-tier development, you have to deal with your selection between J2EE and .NET in the context of having already developed a lot of M$-based web side code.

Does anyone have feedback on integrating a highly-sophisticated mission-critical business tier with ASP/VB for the web side? Bear in mind that a primary objective is that, when done, your component-based middle-tier logic can be shared by your internal applications as well as your ASP code...

I'm a fan of the massive uptime and power of the Unix-based systems, but like the ease of development in the M$ world, especially when I have a lot of people to train. These two issues always seem to be juxtaposed when making the J2EE vs. .NET decision! 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Bernhard Messerer on October 9, 2001 in response to this message. 
Eric,

I think Sun has something which runs ASP pages on iPlanet. This may be ok for a transition period, i.e. you "slowly" remove ASP code and put the business logic into your EJBs.
Nonetheless, you will have to port/rewrite the majority of your code. I however think it is a good investment, as ASP pages on IIS are not really well suited for "mission critical" applications.
But if you only intend sharing EJB code among your internal applications and ASP, this should bhe possible with the right AppServer (Borland for example) because it will give you CORBA access to your beans, and Borland VisiBroker (the CORBA ORB) even delivers a COM-CORBA bridge as far as I know.
It will not be the easiest task however, guess in the long run it is cheaper adopting one platform (where I think J2EE is the better choice) and rewriting the code (to JSP, if deciding for J2EE).

kind regards

Messi 
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 J2EE vs .NET  
Posted By: Richie Richie on October 10, 2001 in response to this message. 
blabla 
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